Various Teachings of Jesus (3)

We are in a series of studies on Wednesday night on the life of Christ. And after introducing the gospels and finding their different distinctives and emphases, we have introduced some of the historical geographical, political, religious background of the gospels. And then we looked at the birth and early childhood of Jesus. We looked at the early ministry of Christ, which extended for about eight months or so. And then we went into a long period of time, a year and a half period of time of Jesus, ministry called the Great Galilee and ministry, very concentrated time of full, hectic ministry, the huge crowds, lots of miracles, and rising opposition on the part of the religious leaders in the country as well. Following that, we entered a six month period of Jesus pulling away from the crowds and focusing more on the 12th. That period of our Lord's life and ministry is often called the training of the 12th. It's a six month period that we are just about at the end of now where Jesus has been focusing upon the teaching, training of his men to prepare them for this paradigm shift, really in ministry from preaching about the kingdom and the ushering end of the kingdom to the church. Now they're talking about the church. Now he's talking about the death of Christ, his own death, and so he's training and teaching them for what will come. We are within about six months or so of the death of Christ by the time we get to the point where we are now. There's a lot yet to happen that the gospel's cover, but we are at a point where Jesus is wrapping up this focus of training on the 12th and he will then make a trip to Jerusalem and minister in and around Judea and Paria and so forth before his death. What we are finding is Jesus wraps up this training is a series of concentrated lessons that he gives his disciples and we've called them the last couple of weeks the various teachings of Jesus. We're going to make our third attempt tonight to get through those various teachings of Jesus. We've seen him teach about faith in the casting out of a demon, of a little demon possessed boy. We have seen him teach about his death once again to the disciples. We've seen him teach about taxes and really the purpose of that was to describe and reinforce his deity and now tonight we're going to look at some teachings about humility and hindrances. Last time we looked at a couple of these and we are in Mark 9. We're looking at Mark's account of this teaching of our Lord. Jesus is in the house with his disciples, probably Peter's home where he made his home base when he was in Capernaum. This is his last visit to Capernaum before his death and as he's in the house he begins teaching them again. We saw that he's warning them about pride and teaching them about humility and as he's teaching them about humility he asks in this question what were you talking about on the road as we were coming back from Mount Herman and they were to ashamed say anything and so Jesus says well let me call a little child up here and explain to you a lesson in humility and he teaches them about humility as they are arguing about position and prestige in his kingdom. Then John raises a question about a teacher and we saw this last time too a teacher that was in Jesus' power obviously and in Jesus' name casting out demons but John said he's not one of us and so we told him to stop and Jesus said don't do that leave him alone he's not against us he is for us no one can do that in my name and my power and then turn against me so Jesus said just leave him alone and so he teaches them a lesson of humility in regard to exclusivism or that kind of party spirit like my group is the only group that God can use so he teaches them a lesson in humility in that regard. Now we are at verse 42 tonight in Mark chapter 9 and we're going to see that Jesus although in a sense he's continuing to teach lessons about humility he now moves more toward causing one of these little ones to stumble. Remember he's just had a child in his arms on his lap teaching a lesson about humility and now he's going to talk about hindrances he says some very strong things so this lesson about hindrances begins in verse 42 and if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck that's a very strong statement. Who does he mean by little ones? Well again remember he's just had a child on his lap so probably that but it may go further than that there are some other little ones mentioned in this passage or might come under the category of little ones the guy who was not recognized as one of the twelve may be considered in their minds a little one or even in verse 41 the one who brings them a cup of water and is rewarded may be referred to as a little one but I think Jesus really is referring to children one of these little ones if you cause a little one to and the Greek word is literally to stumble there are a couple of translations that render it that way but that doesn't really give the full meaning because the word scandal on is used in the New Testament of stumbling in the sense that you cause a person to fall into sin it's not just tripping it's not just you know stumbling kind of hit a roadblock in your Christian life it is falling into sin and so Jesus is warning if you set the kind of example and pattern that causes a little one to choose a path of sin then it would be better for you to be thrown into sea with a large millstone tied around your neck. In other words you deserve the worst of God's judgment if you by example by model by training by teaching by by influence calls a little one to turn towards sin. I want to show you a picture of a millstone this this is a millstone and the word millstone here a couple different Greek words for it the word used here is the word that was used for exactly what this picture connotes and that is when a donkey would be tied to this area right here the yoke a donkey would be yoke here and would would walk around this larger stone grain or whatever grapes whatever would be put in this pit and this is the millstone right here this is a millstone that as the donkey walks around would crush whatever is placed in that that pit that is a heavy stone right there I mean you talk about tying that around your neck and being dropped into the ocean you're not going to get loose from that so Jesus is using a graphic illustration to emphasize how much he loves the little ones okay remember in the context they're arguing about who's going to be the greatest in the kingdom who's going to be sitting at my right hand who's going to be you know the vice president who's going to be secretary of state who's going to be number one in the kingdom and Jesus is saying I want you to be like a little child in fact I want you to have the kind of spirit that takes into account that you don't harm one of these little ones if you do this is what you deserve be thrown into the ocean with that tied around your neck okay that's pretty serious now from there Jesus moves to causing yourself to stumble and he says even some stronger and in many people's minds stranger things notice what Jesus says next verse 43 if your hand causes you to sin cut it off it is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell where the fire never goes out and many later manuscripts have verse 44 where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched verse 45 and if your foot causes you to sin cut it off it is better for you to interlive crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell and again many later Greek manuscripts had verse 46 and them which is again where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched and if verse 47 now if your eye causes you to sin pluck it out it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched every Greek manuscript has it in verse 48 there and then he ends it with verse 49 everyone will be assaulted with fire what a strange teaching of our Lord um he's talking now about causing yourself to fall into sin and there are a lot of things that are unclear in this passage but there are several things that are clear let me just mention a few things that may help us to work through this passage Jesus is speaking in regard to things that would cause you to stay away from trusting Christ obviously isn't he's talking about don't allow things into your life that would keep you from Christ or keep you from faith in him because the punishment for that the result of that is hell okay but remember Jesus is speaking to his disciples in the house how do you put those two together why is he warning his disciples about things that would send them to hell help me out here so they're not to teach others okay all right certainly this this is he's he's training them in understanding the priority of eternal values over earthly values you know and no doubt that will filter into their teaching that's part of the purpose emphasize that people cannot put earthly values over eternal values what's more important what what you want on this earth or eternity obviously to sacrifice an eternity in heaven for what you want in this life and never fall Christ spend eternity in hell that's a pretty bad value system so yes I think he is that's part of it but there may be more here certainly certainly certainly they they would sin I think because of what we understand about the rest of the New Testament we would say they could not lose their salvation if they sin and I know you would agree with that Margaret is there something else going on is there some other kind of warning going on here think of it think for a moment of the composition of the twelve possible twelve apostles or twelve disciples what's the makeup of those twelve disciples no no not from all walks of life one of them was unsaved exactly sharing one of them was unsafe to me this fits with many of the warnings in the Bible like the three warning passage in Hebrews it's a general warning to all and Jesus is giving a general warning that doesn't apply to most of the people in the audience doesn't apply to eleven but it does apply to one and that's Judas and so while it's it's a general warning that may not apply to everybody it is also a gracious warning that does apply to Judas and you'll find Jesus doing this several times in the gospels where he is he is giving the kind of teaching that if Judas is listening he should realize that's directed to me that's meant for me because I know in my heart I'm not truly a follower of Jesus so I think it fits beautifully with with the way I believe the warning passages of Hebrews and I'm not going to get into all that tonight but some of the most difficult passages in the New Testament are I think of the same nature general warnings that would not apply to everybody in the audience but might apply to some who are not genuinely saved and they need to hear those warnings and I think that's what Jesus is probably doing here so I think that that much may be happening here there's there's another interesting factor here if you had been converted right no that's that's a great question if Judas had gotten saved then how would all the prophecies about one who would betray him and so forth how would those have happened I don't know I don't think anybody does all we can say is that God knows ahead of time exactly what will happen his plan is set in motion God knows the ends and he knows the means he knew all along there would be a Judas however Judas is still responsible for his own decisions in choice if Judas had actually come to know Christ and we're dealing with suppositions here because God's knowledge of what would happen is already tied into the Old Testament prophecies you know that all fits together because in God's mind it's all present there's no past present future so we're dealing with ifs that are really not legitimate here but if if Judas had come to know Christ then there would have been some other way that those prophecies would have been fulfilled I don't know that we can say definitely what would have happened but there would have been some way that Jesus still would have been denied by someone close to him there's another very interesting dynamic in this and that is the the very strong language that Jesus uses if if your hand causes you to sin cut it off if your foot caught cut it if your eye get it out that's pretty strong isn't it what do you think Jesus means by that is he talking about literally meaning yourself is is he saying that if you cut your foot off then that means you'd go to heaven or if you deal with a bodily member that will certainly make it to where that you won't be tempted anymore you think you say in that would that be the same thing as saying if you don't hate your mother and father you can't be mad at Christ if you really get meaning that's the hate on mother's no and that's a good that's a good example Jesus used sometimes language that was well understood within the Hebrew and Jewish way of thinking to be what we call an idiom or a metaphor or manner of speaking that was not literal but was figurative and I think that's what's happening here Jesus is not literally saying cut off your hand and then you won't be tempted anymore and you'll go to heaven no I mean monks for centuries tried to do that kind of thing where they would would deny themselves it's called asceticism where they would deny themselves any bodily pleasure or pluck their eyes out or punish themselves to try to get rid of sin nobody gets rid of temptation by inflicting bodily harm on themselves what the monks who lived in caves found out is that their sin nature followed them right in there in the cave with them it wasn't a matter of Jesus is using figurative language which is designed to have some shock value to get the impact of what he's saying across the feet represent where you go the hand represent what you do the eye represents what you see and what you engage your world with if you go do or see anything that keeps you and those things become your primary attraction in life and those things in trap you to where they keep you from Christ the things you do the places you go or the things you observe read you whatever then that's the problem it's not the bodily organ that's the problem it's the sin nature using that vehicle of your body to keep you from having eternal values and so I think Jesus is using the language figuratively but in a very strong fashion to make his point very strongly makes the point certainly you don't have to be quiet where the worm does not die okay I want to get to that I was going to get to that next and that is the very graphic descriptions of hell given in this passage this is the strongest description of hell in the Bible some would argue maybe Luke 16 with the rich man in torment but but this is a very strong description Jesus uses an interesting word for hell here and it's the word ghana it's not the word hey these the word hey these we have seen before is a place for temporary a boat of the dead any dead it's just the place of the dead ghana is literally a place of fire it and it is hell but interestingly enough ghana the Greek word comes from a Hebrew expression which means the valley of henna I wish I had thought to include a picture of the valley of henna the valley of henna is a valley on the south side of the city of Jerusalem if you have in your mind a map of Jerusalem and I know all of you think about that hot you know where the temple is and there's the kidrun valley that goes right down the east side of the city of Jerusalem and they curse underneath the city that's the valley of henna on the south side in the Old Testament the valley of henna was the place where under certain kings like menacea people sacrifice their children to the god molac it was a pagan religion that that was adopted by menacea and some other kings in juda's history and people would burn their children in fire sacrificing them to this god molac when josiah introduced his reforms just about 20 years before juda was taken into captivity to babbling when josiah the godly king found the law of god in the temple and introduced his reforms and put a stop to all that the valley of henna became a garbage dump and josiah said that's all it should be used for that's all it's good for now because of the way it was desecrated so it became a garbage dump there were continual fires there people burning garbage because it was a garbage dump there were continual worms there and so that's the idea Jesus was using valley of henna which every israelite would recognize oh yeah the garbage dump on the south side of town where people throw their garbage over the bank and it burns and their worms all in it it was a horrible place I mean they didn't have landfills back then they dumped it over you know the edge of the into the valley there and burned it and so it was a it was an awful place it was a place where the fire never went out and where the worm was always there because of the garbage and Jesus uses that heinous place which is always burning as a place to describe eternal punishment that's ghana that's ghana the valley of henna it's that place is where people will be punished forever and he ends it with this strange expression in verse 49 everyone will be salted with fire one commentary says there have been 15 different interpretations of that expression and nobody really knows what it means but there there do seem to be a couple of good options and I think probably the best is using the word salt which is a preservative obviously in that day which main use would be a preservative everyone will be salted with fire in this place of eternal punishment in other words people will be preserved in eternal torment what Jesus is teaching is the exact opposite of what Rob Bell has taught in his book Love Winds and that is that there is a place of eternal punishment called hell it is a place where people will continually be preserved in in torment now that should not give any of us any delight or joy in in expressing or teaching or whatever but it is still truth it's the truth that's what Jesus said would happen and just because our sensibilities may be shocked by that or even offended by that is no reason to deny it it's the truth of scripture there will be an eternal place of torment and what Jesus is basically saying if I could just summarize this passage what Jesus basically is saying is okay there are two value systems in this world there are those who place their value system on earthly things they're only temporary and if you live for earthly things that keep you from coming to Christ you have forfeited an eternity for a few years of earthly pleasure and you end up in a place of eternal torment why would you choose that value system you see Jesus is really contrasting eternal values with temporary earthly values and and what happens if you choose those two paths of life what happens in eternity because of that that's really the thrust of this passage any questions comments about these this teaching on hindrances okay verse 50 he winds up with this salt is good but if it loses its saltiness how can you make it salty again have salt in yourselves and be at peace with each other I think here Jesus kind of brings it back around to the where the discussion started this kind of a book end approach to teaching where he starts by talking about their divisive spirit who wants to be the greatest and he ends by saying he's he's just been talking about salt and so he he uses salt in this concept as a preservative he uses that to say okay salt is good but it can lose its saltiness it can lose its pungence it's it's distinctiveness and if it loses that how do you make it salty again and then he says have salt in yourselves in other words don't lose your effectiveness don't lose your your clear sharp distinctive testimony in this world and all the things he's taught him in the house that they kind of lead up to this because everything he's taught him about would would cause them to lose their testimony so he says don't do that and by the way be at peace with each other and he kind of wraps up what he had started with you're talking about who's going to be the greatest in the kingdom one of the quickest ways to lose the sharpness and effectiveness of your Christian testimony is infighting about who's more important who's better who's you know more godly more spiritual come on guys stop that be at peace among yourselves what he's saying and that will keep your saltiness all right now let's let's move to the next event which as you will see naturally follows this with a discussion that Jesus introduces on conflict resolution Matthew chapter 18 Matthew 18 the next event as our Lord teaches the 12 is about conflict resolution and that is a very natural next step almost continues the discussion because Jesus has just told the disciples be at peace among yourselves and so now he talks about okay how do you deal with conflict and when it comes up okay here's a way to deal with conflict and this passage is one of those critical passages for understanding how we're to deal with one another how we're to relate to one another in the church Jesus does tie it into the church in this teaching on conflict resolution Jesus basically gives four steps that should be followed in conflict resolution the first the procedure of conflict resolution the first one is personal confrontation verse 15 if your brother sins against you go and show him his fault just between the two of you if he listens to you you have won your brother over okay now notice carefully what Jesus says if your brother sins against you this is brother and brother these are two brothers these are people in the family of God this is not talking about your neighbor who's unsaved now it's talking about brothers people in the family of God okay so the first the first step is personal confrontation if if another believer sins against you notice who is the one to go initiate the conflict resolution he says you go and show him his fault now think about this for a minute someone else is in the wrong someone else has sinned against you they have been wrong and Jesus says if you're aware of it you take the initiative to resolve the conflict don't wait for him to apologize don't wait for him to come asking for forgiveness if you are aware of the conflict you initiate the resolution interestingly enough Jesus also said back in Matthew 5 and the second on the mount if you are at the temple offering your gift and there you realize your brother has something against you then before you even offer your gift you go resolve that conflict aha here you've done something wrong and you realize all of a sudden oh my brother has something against me I've done something wrong I realize it I've got to go resolve the conflict put those two passages together and you have a very important principle of conflict resolution that is rarely followed and that is you never wait on the other person to initiate conflict resolution never never if you're the one in the wrong Matthew 5 kicks in you're supposed to go take care of it if you are the one who has been wronged the other person is in the wrong but you recognize it you're to initiate the conflict resolution never are we to say well he was the one in the wrong he should apologize to me first it's not what Jesus taught never should we wait on the other person to say I'm sorry I was wrong apologize I ask you forgiveness well I shouldn't resolve this they didn't ask for my it's not what Jesus taught Jesus said if you are aware of the conflict whether you are the one in the wrong or you have been wronged you go make resolution or make the attempt make resolution obviously as as we we know from this passage and others it requires the response of the other person as well but you are to initiate the conflict resolution very important principle of conflict resolution I cannot tell you the number of times in counseling that comes up with with married couples with brothers and sisters in the body of Christ who are at odds with each other and they are waiting on the other one they will not budge because that person hasn't asked for my forgiveness they haven't admitted their wrong Jesus says you never have the right to wait you take the initiative to resolve the conflict that may not be able to be resolved ultimately but at least you take the initiative you take the first step to make sure you give it the effort you try and what are you to do verse 15 you're to go and show him his fault now obviously you're going to do that with grace and kindness there are other teachings that kick in here you know it's not like you're going to go with both guns blazing you know I'm well I'll get him I'll show him you know it's not that spirit you know there are some other passages that deal with escalation six one for instance if a brother be taken overtaken in a fault you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of meekness considering yourself that you also be tempted if you ever go confront another person you do it with meekness not with a condemning spirit you go with meekness and so but you are to confront you are to confront the Bible says make that person honestly aware of what has happened what they did or said that was that was wrong do it in love but do it it's not easy but we're to do it and then Jesus says that's the first step now what most often happens in cases like this what do we not you but other people other Christians most often do when there is a problem like this gossiped everybody we find exactly we tell other people don't we what someone has done or said Jesus says huh oh you go to that person and and show him his fault it's not your it's not that you're condescending and you're teaching him how wrong he is it's that you make him aware of what's happened that has hurt you he may not even be aware of it and then again he or she may be but but you are to take the initiative okay what else do we sometimes do and when these issues come up get prideful yeah and we just hold it all in which yeah it's his fault and what good does that do I've seen that the results of it over and over and over again it just leads to resentment and bitterness inside it's always best to do what Jesus said okay because if you just hold it in and pridefully say I will not move I'll not take the first step I was not wrong and then you're going to create bitterness and resentment in your own heart it'll end up eating you from the inside out what else do we do when someone is wrong this get even yeah that's the fourth one on my list but it is it is something we often do we will scheme in our minds to say something or do something that will get back at that person yeah it really is fellowship is broken shattered with this those kind of responses restoration is is practically as you said Sharon impossible when we take those approaches there's one other approach that is highly practiced but nobody's mentioned yet yeah wait for something bad to happen to them even pray that God will get them now that's that's not the one I was thinking of but I think that is one that is often practiced yeah do nothing yeah that's that's something that a lot of people do still not the one I'm thinking of ignore it still not the one I'm thinking of maybe I'm the only one that would think of this but many people tell their pastor so he can solve it that is more common than you would like to believe rather than going to the person that they need to go to they come tell the pastor so the pastor can deal with it you go straight in this person out that is what do I tell them I tell him read Matthew 18 for crying out loud and say anything about going to your pastor not yet anyway I don't quite say it like that but that happens an awful lot yes exactly all of us in public ministry do that there are times when I've been preaching and I realize as I'm scanning the audience that something I just said I'm certain will be offensive to someone I never intended that but the way it was said or the illustration I used was something that would touch somebody very closely and it hit me as I see them and that that happens a lot yeah so yeah that's a that's a disclaimer probably I should be giving as well a lot of should the personal confrontation is the first step okay I can tell right now we're not going to finish the various teachings tonight I'm so sorry we're getting bogged down but this is a good place to get bogged down this is very critical teaching for church relationships second second step is group confrontation group confrontation okay says if your brother sins against you go and show him a spot just between the two of you very clear who's involved here just between the two of you if he listens to you you've won your brother over number 16 but if he will not listen take one or two others along so that and he quotes from the Old Testament law so that every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses this is group confrontation if if personal confrontation does not resolve the issue and and by the way could I say that I don't think Jesus is necessarily restricting the personal confrontation to one attempt it's not like boom boom boom boom and we're at step four within six hours you know I think just good common sense and an understanding of the breadth of biblical teaching on personal relationships would indicate that there may need to be some time here for the spirit of God to soften a person's heart sometimes I found when I talk with someone I miss perceived things and and it takes me some time to back up and say wait a second I was seeing this wrong and so sometimes it needs to be a little time maybe more than one confrontation maybe several personal but if he will not listen take one or two others along if the personal confrontation is unsuccessful then you need to go to the next level and that's to take a couple of people with you and this is in accord with Old Testament laws Jesus is teaching here so he says that every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses now what that means for us is that you have witnesses to the fact that you've made the attempt now again the attitude is so important here it's not like okay I'm going to marshal people on my side it no it's not that it's so that there can be testimony given to the fact that if the person refuses to reconcile then there are people who understand what has happened that the offended party has made an attempt an honest attempt if the person does accept correction there are witnesses to that so that he or she cannot go back on it later I mean that's what Jesus is saying that whatever happens in this meeting is witnessed by a couple of other people so that that it's you know in the mouth of two or three witnesses everything is established that that's how you know for sure what has happened so that's group confrontation okay any question comment there okay the third step in conflict resolution is church confrontation look at verse 17 if he refuses to listen to them and again there may have been several attempts here but if he refuses to listen to them tell it to the church and if he refuses to listen even to the church treat him as you would a pagan or tax collector there's a whole lot I want to say here so let me let me hasten to say it I think this implies that the church approaches this person this party possibly through representatives of the church it's not like you have 500 people show up at their home okay there may be representatives of the church this is where maybe the pastor is called in this is where maybe a deacon goes this is where someone else in the church you may have a vested interest in these two people in their relationships but represents the church and and if if that does not work where the church through representatives actually confronts this person as well then notice the next step which is church exclusion in the verse 17 if he refuses to listen to them tell the church if he refuses to listen even to the church treat him as you would a pagan and a tax collector now I would love to involve some discussion here and questions but there's some things that I've got to say tonight to balance some things out here or or you'll go crazy on church discipline which a lot of people have done the fourth step is church exclusion if a person is still unresponsive as a last resort as a last resort not the gold not oh boy let's get rid of this no as a last resort after every other avenue has been exhausted a person may be excluded from the fellowship of the church now when Jesus says that by the way it's carried out in two ways Jesus makes it very clear he says treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector now Jesus is not just saying picking those words out of sky those words have definite meaning in the culture and society relationships and even religious relationships of the Jewish nation very interesting what Jesus is doing here the disciples don't understand church context yet this is only the second time Jesus has mentioned the church by name they don't understand church culture yet they do understand the culture of the temple and the Jewish way of life and so Jesus uses words from that culture to explain what he's talking about what does it mean to treat someone as a pagan well a pagan could not worship in the temple a pagan could not be involved in the rights and ceremonies of the temple there was a court of the Gentiles where they could pray but they could not be involved in the rights and ceremonies of the temple life and Jewish worship system that was reserved for Jews and so what he's saying as we translate that into a church context is church discipline if something ever comes to that means that a person is excluded from the the observances the rights of the church for instance church leadership membership those kinds of things okay communion yeah although that's a little more difficult to control a little more difficult to control but then to treat him as a tax collector that's more of a social stigma a tax collector was on the lowest run of social strata you did not want to go to a tax collector's house you did not want to have dinner with a tax collector remember Jesus was criticized constantly by the Pharisees for doing that very thing it was understood in Jewish culture he's a social outcast and so translate that to the church and what Jesus is saying is if someone is under church discipline don't go behind the back of the of the church leadership and go to that person's house and say we know I really thought you were treated wrong here I know no no you treat them as a tax collector there is a social disengagement from that person you will create division and disunity if you do otherwise now here's what I want to say but we have caveats and let me say them very quickly but hopefully very clearly some people have taken a passage like this and they've just gone to seed on church discipline and they discipline people for everything right and left man people get kicked out of church for everything that is not what Jesus is getting at a couple of caveats several caveats here or disclaimers one is there are other Bible teachings that we have to take into consideration remember any passage ripped out of its context not taking in the larger context of scripture can be misused in horrible ways the Bible also teaches that love covers a multitude of sins if someone makes a comment about your weight you get offended by that and you're not going to speak to them and this starts this you know okay we're not talking about situations like that anybody with any grain of common sense or spiritual sense knows that something you just overlook love covers a multitude of sins so that principle needs to be put into practice here so we're not going to discipline someone from the church for making a comment about your weight okay silly example no but things like that can escalate to the point that people feel like oh no we got a discipline people because we're following this process we got to kick them out of the church and I realized all the arguments about well there are other issues if they are at odds with each other and so forth but be careful about this I call it the danger of nitpicking on issues like that the rest of the New Testament when it deals with specific examples of people that are disciplined from a church it is always some public sin that is a discredit to the testimony of Christ in the community and a discredit to the testimony of the church for instance it's Roman 16 causing the vision in the church first Corinthians 5 a man who was living in sexual sin with his stepmother and Paul says even the Gentiles know better than that even on unsaved people know better to live like that in 2nd Thessalonians 3 it's people who had quit work and were sponging off of other people because they said Jesus is going to come back at any time I mean these are the kinds of things that create public distaste for the gospel and for the church you don't do church discipline over every issue Jesus is giving a process for dealing with conflict resolution but other passages tell us that last step is reserved for the kinds of offenses that really create a community-wide distaste and disfavor for the things of God and ruin the testimony of Christ and the church in a community so you know I've seen some really wild cases of church discipline and by the way you say has it ever been done here of course it has only rarely has it ever gone to the final step and one of the things that makes church discipline difficult in Western settings is that people when they realize you're confronting them personally and now maybe the Deaconer church trying to deal with a sin issue they just take off and go join another church that wasn't possible in New Testament times and you would be horrified to know the lack of pastors checking with other pastors to see why is this person coming I saw a pastor friend of mine in the hospital just last week and someone from that person's church it's not the church you're thinking about it's not the pastor you're thinking about someone else someone from that pastor's church had called me and said I'm looking for another church this happened this happened and immediately my antenna went up there's a problem with someone in that church well this this pastor stopped me in the hallway at the hospital last week and said did so and so call you I said yes and he went on to explain more of the situation and I said what just about call his name I said brother I am glad we saw each other I had every intention of calling you to find out about this to my knowledge this person is not shown up yet at our church but if they do if they want to talk with me about membership I will tell them they have an issue at the church they're coming from that has to be dealt with first you're not going to come here with an issue unresolved at another church most most times that doesn't happen and so church discipline is almost impossible to enforce even in the most difficult cases because they just run off and join another church somewhere and the pastor of the church is receiving it will never ask any questions about why they left their previous church and so that makes discipline very difficult in this day and age please understand most of these issues are solved in the first couple of stages most of them in the first stage of personal confrontation I think it's only in very rare cases that ever makes it all the way through where church has to deal with something it's a very difficult thing well I've taken too much time any comments or questions quickly before we go you're wanting to get home too right okay let's let's close father thank you for the teaching of your word the teaching of our Lord and Savior to his disciples instructing them guiding them is to how to live out the Christian life and how to lead the church father give us your wisdom and grace to apply these these principles to our own settings our own situations help us to be clear to follow your word to apply the the teaching of your word in very direct and yet loving and gracious ways we pray in Jesus' name amen